WTF Did You Learn Today?
Feed your brain, fight decay. Now tell me, what the fuck did you learn today?
WTF Did You Learn Today?
None of Us Is Leaving Here Alive
In this episode, I catch up with one of my oldest friends—someone who has never joined social media. No Facebook. No Instagram. Just a few digital breadcrumbs from AIM to Livejournal, and trailing off at MySpace.
We talk about what it means to reject the feed entirely, especially when the world feels like it’s cracking open. Topics include:
- spiritual death and mental decay
- her refusal to “log on” and lurk scroll
- the psychic toll of being hyper-online during socio-economic freefall
- the fatigue of constant social listening
- and the existential crises we curate like content
She stayed off. I stayed in. And now we’re here, trying to make sense of the ruins.
None of us is leaving here alive. But maybe we can laugh about it before we go.
Books
- Wintering by Katherine May
- A meditation on fallow seasons in life and spiritual death/rebirth cycles.
- Link to book
- Stuff White People Like by Christian Lander
- A satirical cultural commentary mentioned during the Facebook vs. MySpace discussion.
- Link to book
- We Will Not Cancel Us by adrienne maree brown
- A short book about radical compassion and transformative justice, tied to pleasure activism.
- Link to book
- Pleasure Activism: The Politics of Feeling Good by adrienne maree brown
- Mentioned indirectly as the book that expands on pleasure activism.
- Link to book
Podcasts
- Horror Queers
- A podcast that analyzes horror films through a queer lens.
- Link to podcast
- How Did This Get Made?
- A podcast that hilariously dissects bizarre or bad movies.
- Link to podcast
Websites & Platforms
- Letterboxd
- Social platform for film lovers to review and share film ratings and critiques.
- Goodreads
- A social cataloging site for book tracking, reviews, and recommendations.
- Yoga With Adriene
- YouTube yoga channel that became popular during the pandemic.
Media Mentions
- The Doors – Referenced as a formative musical influence.
- Led Zeppelin – Mentioned in relation to an IMAX documentary experience.
- The Office (TV Show) – Used as a mental palate cleanser.
- The Godfather – Referenced multiple times (“go to the mattresses” and “leave the gun, take the cannoli”).
Hey, what the fuck did you learn today? I'm your host, Urania Zed. Yes. All right. I think we're ready. So hello, and welcome to what the fuck did you learn today? I'm Urania Zed. And I'm here with my friend Mickey. And we're going to have a conversation about Vicky, what the fuck did you learn today?
SPEAKER_02:I learned lots of things today. The highlights include one of my best friends, Autumn, loves raspberry. I did not know that. I learned that today. I learned that there's such a thing as pizza where the sauce is on top of the cheese, which is chef's kiss. And I learned quite a lot about roofing and shingles today, but I'm not going to go too deep into that. into that
SPEAKER_00:oh wait no you can't say that because i literally have to get my roof fixed
SPEAKER_02:i can refer you to someone who knows all about it because we had someone come over to the house um to talk to us about like replacing our roof and um duane from i think muns is the company's name he came in and he talked to us about like what needs to be done he showed us literally like the materials for all the different layers that would go on to your roof um and all kinds of stuff but yeah he talked for an hour so there's lots of materials there and i'm happy to give you his number and cart because i liked him he was cool
SPEAKER_00:wow okay no i i had we had a windstorm here that's right and part of my roof got blown off but i was able to claim it uh with my insurance. I think I'm allowed to say that. An insurance claim isn't one of those things that you can't talk about. You know how some things, if it's a court thing or like, I don't think a roof replacement is an insurance claim. It's a legitimate claim.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's more evidence that it actually happened.
SPEAKER_00:Otherwise, that could be something I learned today when they're like, oh, we saw your podcast and we are not going to pay for your roof.
SPEAKER_02:No, you talked about it. It's supposed be on the hush hush but you advertise
SPEAKER_00:it well those are some some interesting interesting things to learn about i'm trying to think of what the fuck did i learn today see this is part of the root of this question is we learn things every second of every day yes like there's always something that is passing in front of your, it's engaging one of your five senses. And in some way you are learning from that, right? I guess that's how we adapt as human beings, or we don't adapt if we die. And I think one of the things that I said, none of us is leaving here alive. That was something that came up. a bit before we started recording. And so to that note, if none of us are leaving here alive while we're here, why don't we try and use our mental faculties to the best of our ability, not just for our own sake, like, yes, doing it for your own sake. Fine. Like self-interest is a thing, but we exist among so many other people. Yes. And if this human experiment is going to continue to work, we each have to just do a small part, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, when you say none of us is leaving here alive, I mean, there's obviously, like, the physical decline of the body until, like, we're all dust. I also think that, you know, it's true in the sense that there is a spiritual death, right? when you stop learning
SPEAKER_01:so
SPEAKER_02:like you can walk around and you can still do all the things that you do from day to day but if there's not that sense of aliveness if you're not learning something new then you have a kind of spiritual death they talk about this a lot in literature and i was an english live major so that's like that's my jam right there spiritual death existentialism um
SPEAKER_00:I'm so glad you invoked the spiritual death.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Spiritual death is very, I think spiritual death actually happens a lot sooner than physical death. And even, and actually I think it happens even sooner than a mental death too. Cause we were also talking about declining intellectual abilities, you know, like having dementia or Alzheimer's. So that would be considered like a mental death while your body is still healthy, but that's different from a spiritual death.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Do you think we have multiple like multiple spiritual deaths and rebirths? Like, is it possible to come back from a spiritual death and then die again spiritually, like while you're still walking in this? Yeah, in this body? I
SPEAKER_02:think so. Yeah, because, um, One of my favorite books I've ever read is called Wintering. I forget the name of the author. You
SPEAKER_00:can look it up. I can put that in the links.
SPEAKER_02:The book is really fascinating because she talks about how you have fallow seasons and you have to sort of hunker down and just let the brutality and the cruelty and the coldness and the harshness of that season of your life. You have to just sort of protect yourself until you're ready to come back out again. So maybe there's like a loss in the family. Um, maybe it's like the sudden change in career that you were not expecting. Um, or, um, you, or you lost something that's really important to you and all of a sudden you don't have it anymore. And so your body and your mind and your emotions are experiencing this great trauma. So then you have to make a choice, I think. Um, to decide, okay, I'm going to hunker down. I'm going to let my body heal, lick my wounds. And then when I'm ready, I can come back out. And then that would be kind of spiritual rebirth. Or, you know, some people never recover. I
SPEAKER_00:believe that. I'm so glad that you even invoked that. Because I feel like I specifically, part of this act of doing this podcast speaks to some type of death that I've been like actively going through. Oh. Just around kind of my interests, who I thought I was. And I think some of it was accelerated by the pandemic, you know, because I'm definitely not the same person that I was 2018, 2019, you know, before COVID. those experiences of being isolated, feeling like, you know, I was able to draw into myself and spend more time with myself. Yeah. But I also became very hyper-immersed online. Right. Like, even more so, you know, I've worked in communications for a while, and I think... I had always been online. I mean, when we met, we were working on, we were mostly working online. We were working with information. We were working with research. And then we were trying to communicate that research. So a lot of that work was online work. Online. But, you know... back in those days when you left work, you left work. You shut the computer down. You turned it up. You didn't even think of it. You didn't even take it. The computer wasn't even yours to take home. It was
SPEAKER_02:a desktop, big old heavy. It's like a monitor. And then like a really heavy, like a tower. I remember that.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Like there was no, and you know, and I think back there were blackberries, but like only like important people had blackberries. Like we didn't have blackberries. Like I had a flip phone to text for fun, you know, but so I, I say that to, to come back to, I think going through the pandemic and by the nature of my work being isolated and being afraid because you know none of us knew really what was going on like you know with with with with the disease with quarantine you know but my job required that i was online and monitoring conversations online and i think i i'm still recovering or not even i don't even know if i'm recovering from that like once i went there it was kind of i'm still trying to pull myself out of that hyper awareness. And I don't know whether, you know, I'm creating content, creating this podcast so that I can share it online, but at least part of the goal of this is to kind of talk about these things, learn about what that means, learn about what I consider, I think I am still going through some type of spiritual death and rebirth cycle because Coming out of the pandemic, a lot of things that I, I guess that I thought I was interested in or like, you know, I've always like latched on to an idea or, you know, I made music for a while and I was really into making music. All of that kind of just... I don't care. It's like I don't care about it. Or when I try to care about it, there's something that's just not moving inside of it. It's like a resistance that's pulling. And I do think that that is related to some type of spiritual death because I see who I was.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm trying to be that person, but I'm not that person. Those motivations are not there anymore. That inner spring of... inspiration that i used to have is not there like i have to re-create it yes and like literally maybe this podcast could be by way of like trying to like reboot something but so again i've been talking for too long but so wintering is is the book
SPEAKER_02:yes
SPEAKER_00:all right Right.
SPEAKER_02:So I'm kind of curious because you mentioned that, you know, during the pandemic, you had to monitor online conversations like message boards, kind of probably.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I used that. We use some different tools. Like, obviously, if you are managing social media platforms, there are like built in analytics and things that you can use to monitor or just you are monitoring comments and likes to understand what people are saying, whether something is popular, whether something is not popular. But we also use software to monitor social like the broader social media. Like we would put in search terms to scour the web, like for websites, for certain mentions. We would use that tool to monitor, because a lot of these social listening tools allow you to plug in your account so that you can listen to the data that's being shared. And you can pinpoint to look out for certain types of topics, like for, you know, hot topics or keywords or racist language, like all of it. And so I was monitoring a lot of that because I had to report on those types of things.
SPEAKER_02:So that sounds a little bit like data mining. Is that?
SPEAKER_00:In some, like the tools were data mining, like the software was mining the data, but I was like having to retrieve it or look for data to actually interpret and tell, like see like, okay, what is being said? Right. And is this an issue enough for me to tell other people about it because it's something that will affect us
SPEAKER_02:what would what would you say like from all that experience like what was your learning like what did you learn because you spent it sounds like you invested a lot of time and energy and effort so you mustn't learn something like what the fuck did you learn
SPEAKER_00:i guess on one level i did learn that excuse me We just said pizza, and I am expelling some of it. So I think at the time, because I do remember, it was kind of like a learning process. The more involved I got and the more I learned to use the tool, or I had to learn how to use the tool for certain purposes, I learned that I was kind of... excited about having access to all of these conversations.
SPEAKER_03:And
SPEAKER_00:so I learned that I guess I had an ability to kind of quickly take snapshots of the different types of visualizations I was seeing or like the dashboards I was creating to actually get like a pretty good sense of like, okay, here are some key things, here are some trendy things, here are some problematic things. And then of course, when the volume started going up and when there were a lot of protests, we were coming under, like our accounts, there was a lot of chatter that we had to monitor and I realized like, this is kind of too much for me to handle. that was when I started to realize it was still interesting to me, but I was getting too caught up in it and it was affecting my outlook. Like an
SPEAKER_02:information overload, that kind of...
SPEAKER_00:It was overload, but it was also affecting my sense of happiness, of peace, because I was seeing so much dissent and anger and explosive... you know, uh, comments, yeah, conflicts. And, and, and I would just notice, and the other part of that was a lot, or the tools we were able to use also were able to show that many of these entities were not necessarily real human beings or, you know, um, and that was really what started, that was when I started to realize that, okay, this is There's a lot more at play here than just angry people who are angry. There's an organized element to this. There's
SPEAKER_02:a structural, systemic... tool for creating this kind of atmosphere this kind of vibe
SPEAKER_01:yes if you will
SPEAKER_02:yes that has nothing to do with people actually feeling that vibe but you know once people felt that vibe it's like they're like contaminated or like they just sort of caught the virus of feeling angry and
SPEAKER_00:yes yes because the feelings are still real like regardless of who is saying it or whether it's true or whether the feelings of especially if you're exposed to it like i you know i and around that time there were more people who worked in social media who were presenting and like kind of talking about mental health and like hey like if you're on the front lines like you know please know that like this is not normal like you know what I mean like there and you should seek out other like talk or you know this is a lot to take on because it affects and not only and I started it not only affected my mood but it was I could see how it was affecting people like in real life and I and I think when I first started working in you know when social media started becoming a thing and I still think to this day like a lot of people kind of blew it off they were like oh it's just some fun thing that the kids are doing it's not you know and you know it's not serious but it's very like I think we and maybe we've learned a little bit now like we've really underestimated the effect that these public conversations that anyone can have and they can be inflicted on you whether kind of like whether you want them to be inflicted on you or not they they take their toll
SPEAKER_02:as someone like so see here's the thing like i first heard about facebook in college and so like i heard about it and i eventually i think i was reading this book called stuff white people like I think
SPEAKER_00:I remember that. Yeah, it's a
SPEAKER_02:hilarious book. And they were talking about like how Facebook was like a gated community with all these amenities. And MySpace was like, you know, the downtown with like the money tree and like the convenience store and like the smoke shop. And I thought that was funny as hell, even though I've never been on Facebook.
SPEAKER_00:See, this is, there's so few people that I have met that have not been on Facebook.
SPEAKER_02:So if you're listening or watching and we're watching, I have never, and I mean never, been on Facebook. I don't mean I signed up for it and quit. I mean I've never had a Facebook account. I have never had Instagram. I have never had Twitter. I had MySpace for about nine months because that was the only way I could get in touch at the time to my then ex-boyfriend, now husband. And I use it pretty much exclusively to talk to him. him um so i'm not sure that really counts but yeah yeah never had any kind of social media and the reason if you were wondering is because i did not understand it i genuinely did not um i at the time i think uh aim chat do you
SPEAKER_00:aim does anybody yeah does anybody remember aol instant messenger
SPEAKER_02:yep
SPEAKER_00:yes
SPEAKER_02:aim was like the primary like in live journal a lot of online blogs zanga live journal I think there were a couple of others. So that was, during my college experience, sort of the big things. I did do those. I did do journal, and obviously I had AIM chat. but I couldn't manage those things because there was so much drama. Because you would see your friends would post and then you would check comments and you'll see people not comment on your blog or my blog and I would just be like, why didn't you comment? Or I would be online and other people would be online and it's like, why didn't you chat with me? And from there, I realized that if I were ever on Facebook, I would just instantly stalk all of my ex-boyfriends. And I'm like, let's just do ourselves a public service and just not even go there. And that's why I never went on social media because one, I knew that it would not be manageable. I couldn't even handle LiveJournal. And two, I didn't really understand what it was. Like, I didn't really understand what it was for. I didn't really understand how it would affect me. But people just seemed to, like, really be into it. And I don't know. I was able to sort of survive without it. P.S., I work as a Starbucks barista and an admin at a real estate management company. So, like, I don't really have any career aspirations.
SPEAKER_03:So...
SPEAKER_02:No, I'm not ashamed to admit I have no aspirations. I have no ambitions. I really don't.
SPEAKER_00:Why do you think that is? Because you're a very creative person. You write all of the time. You are a really lovely writer. You write me letters all the time. You read. You're a cinephile. So what is it about... Is it that your curiosity is just... I mean, I don't want to assume anything. What is it that you are ambitious about if it's not... A career.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know that as ambition as much as compulsion. Did I tell you? Last month, I saw 20 movies in theaters. I'm not kidding. 20 movies in theaters. Last month, if you will remember, is the month of March. There were 31 days and I watched 20 movies in physical movie theaters. Do that math. How many movies did I see? like every other day basically but it was it's not like an ambition it's not like oh i gotta meet this goal as much as like yeah i have to go see this movie because this movie looks really interesting yeah or i don't really like the subject of this movie therefore i must go see it and find out why
SPEAKER_00:okay all right so there is there so that's because again movies are learning experiences. Like every, every moment of a movie, at least like when I watch a movie, I'm definitely, there are so many things that. I guess it depends on the type of movie I'm watching. But usually I end up having an inner dialogue with myself based on either the conversations or the themes the movie's bringing up. Sometimes I have to pause a movie because I'm like, you know what? This is activating too many things that I don't want to think about right now. There are certain movies that make me think about work and I'm like, I can't think about work. I'm going to change this and watch The Office. This is why you go to a
SPEAKER_02:theater so you don't have that You don't have that choice. You're forced to sit there to the end. But continue.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But no, but I mean, cinema and like that visual, I guess it's like visual learning or like, you know, visual stories that kind of force you in a way to either learn something about yourself or learn something about the character. Sometimes even learning, if you're really into like who the director is or the writer of the movie is, learning, like wondering, learning about, you know, who they are because... So that is... That's interesting. I hadn't thought about, like, that. Because I guess when I'm trying to... I guess my immediate thing that I turn to is probably my computer or my phone.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay. When you're trying to learn something new?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Like, you're like, I have this question. Or even just to be... to get some type of visual input output, I guess, if that's the right thing. My first instinct isn't to go to the theater or even maybe turn on the TV. It's to pick up one of my screens.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:But I think that it might, again, I'm not doing a longitudinal study or anything, but the fact that you are seeking out a different type of stimulus in the real world in the form of cinema is like, it's kind of like a learning or a curiosity style maybe, or I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I never thought about it that way, actually. That, like, it's a learning style where that I'm, like, seeking out stimulus. I always thought it was because, like, I have an addiction. I got to go to, like, Movie Goers Anonymous or something like that. This is bad.
SPEAKER_00:Do you use Letterboxd? It's a website. I
SPEAKER_02:don't stream.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's not streaming. It's like a forum. It's like apparently because I listen to... We're creating a podcast. I listen to a lot of podcasts. One of my favorite podcasts at the moment is a podcast called Horror Queers.
SPEAKER_03:Oh,
SPEAKER_00:yeah. And they usually cover mostly horror films, some psychological thrillers. And they kind of look at it from a lens of a queer perspective. Yes. But a lot of times when they're doing... Because they do a lot of background research, production history, you name it. It's really... Oh, yeah. They cover it. But... Letterboxd, you know how, like, there's, like, Rotten Tomatoes and, like, a lot of people, like, look that up to see, like, oh, is this movie any good or, like, the IMDb score?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:They, even though they mention that, Letterboxd seems to be the site that they are, like, the people who use Letterboxd, I guess, are, like, more into... Critical. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's, like, critical thinking about movies or cinema or arts. Like,
SPEAKER_02:unpacking, like, the different layers, like, whether it's, like, production or themes, like you were talking about. Yes. Or like, you know, like behind the scenes, like directors and actors and how that influenced the making of.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So that's, again, I, I do not, I don't think I've created an account. I thought about creating an account because I was like, well, you know, maybe if I went on there, I would learn more or, you know, but I haven't done that, but it came to mind because I wondered if you were a Letterboxd critic or.
SPEAKER_02:No. Um, I thought, so for the last like two years, I've had a sub sack and I I've been trying to get myself to write regularly and I just I'm just I have too many things to do because I'm in four book clubs and I go see 20 movies a month and like all this other stuff and I just like the only the one thing I don't make time for actually is creativity and that's something I would love to like get into the habit of but I just haven't gotten around to it but no I don't I don't sometimes so what will happen is I will see a movie and afterwards I would have all these questions you know because movies have movies to me are like packages because really well made movies especially there's music whether it's a pop tune or the score that they had. So there's sound, there's sight, obviously. There's all this stuff to look at. And then there's words. And if you're seeing a foreign film, there's a different language. And then if it's any kind of film, really, there's the historical context. So it's the time period that it's in and the history of that moment. And if it's a foreign country, then it's like... You're going to have to catch up on a lot of history to be able to understand what's going on. And then costume and all of that. So I think it will be very hard for anyone to go see a movie and then not walk out with a lot of questions and not want to learn more because there's just so many things happening. Yeah. Like, even if you go see a movie and you don't like it, there's going to be some question of like, why did they make this?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. There's a podcast called How Did This Get Made? Yes. And it's hilarious. Right? Because it's kind of questioning like, wait, whose idea was this? And sometimes they are celebrating a movie for being so ridiculous. Right. But a lot of times it's also like, how did someone invest millions of dollars into this?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Exactly. So there's always like, so there's always like this kernel of like, I just experienced this. Like I, it's either like, what did I just experience?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Or why did I just experience
SPEAKER_00:it? Yes. Because it, it, it, it, you're immersed in an emotional event. Yep. Like the entire time. Yeah. And that's, it is a different, it's a different, uh, guess it is it's a different experience than when I'm scrolling through my phone even though I'm sure there is a similar type of emotional resonance that is happening or emotional stress that is happening but I feel like in addition to the radiation that's coming off of my phone a movie is probably lighter on the Like, overall, perhaps. I don't know. Well,
SPEAKER_02:I think that it's true not just for movie, but for music. Right? Because you can hear a song, you know, like Led Zeppelin. I listened to Led Zeppelin for the very first time this year.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I was really lucky because I watched a documentary at an IMAX theater. So I was listening to, like, Led Zeppelin High Def. Led Zeppelin One. That's
SPEAKER_00:an experience. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:While they were making the album. Okay. So, you know, like... Even if I were to just listen to Led Zeppelin, or the first time you showed me The Doors, remember? Oh, yeah. I think so. Yeah. Did I? You were the first one to introduce me to The Doors. I didn't know anything about them. So I listened to the music, and I did not understand it.
SPEAKER_00:Many people don't understand The
SPEAKER_02:Doors. I didn't understand it, but because you introduced it to me, and I love you, so I'm like, I must love The Doors. I have no choice. There's no, like... There's no way I'm not going to love The Doors because Autumn loves The Doors. So then I started reading books about The Doors and I started watching, not watching, but just learning more about that time period and that music and that scene, basically.
SPEAKER_01:Sure,
SPEAKER_02:yeah. So I think one of my motivations to really learn more about music in that sense was because of the people I love. Because my ex-boyfriend from high school was the same thing. He introduced me to jazz. I was like, I don't understand jazz. But he really likes it, so I have to like it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I definitely can feel that draw, the emotional draw, the relational draw to things that you wouldn't normally even want to be... you know, interested in, but it's the proxy. There's probably like a term for that. Like I feel like there's, that sounds like a...
SPEAKER_02:What was the last time you learned something because someone that you love or admire said, I love this. And you're like, I don't get it, but okay, I'll learn about it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, quite literally. Yeah. Just in the last... So I visited, me and my partner visited Greece last... summer and so like since I met my partner like he speaks Greek and English and I remember initially like when I would hear because he speaks Greek all the time he interprets he teaches Greek and I remember when I first was hearing the language but then when I saw that the alphabet was different. I immediately became so like, just right off the gate, like, oh no, I don't think I'll ever be able to learn that because the letters are different. You know, it's one thing like, you know, if the letters, the alphabet is similar, the characters are similar and you can kind of work your way through the sounds. But so I say that because I had not even given a thought to even trying to learn Greek until the lead up to when we were going to travel to Greece. My partner had printed out a Greek alphabet and I had at least started trying to understand the associated sounds with the letters because I wanted to at least make the effort. And it's like on some level. And I know like a few words. Like I know ohi is no. Ne is yes. Wait, wait, wait. Hang on. It's different.
SPEAKER_02:Ohi is no.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And yes is ne?
SPEAKER_00:Ne.
SPEAKER_02:Ne.
SPEAKER_00:Ne. Okay. Cool.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Good to know. That's important
SPEAKER_00:to me. And like good morning, Calimera.
SPEAKER_02:Calimera.
SPEAKER_00:The beginning of the month, like the first day of the month, you say Calimena. Like the beginning of like good month.
SPEAKER_02:Calimena.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:If you like to say like happy travels, Calotaxiri.
SPEAKER_02:It's called a taxidi.
SPEAKER_00:And like taxidi is like related to like our word taxi, like a travel. Taxidi is like a, I think it's like to go or to
SPEAKER_02:travel.
SPEAKER_00:So anyway, I've learned some of the words and I remember, and obviously the through line is through music. So my partner also plays Greek music. And when I hear the Greek music, I'm like, okay, I can mimic the sounds maybe and I can like recognize some of the words. But I... I at least, through my relationship with my partner and his just immersion in the Greek language, it took me a while to even open my own self up. Because it was mostly fear of, oh my gosh, I don't even think I could teach myself a whole new alphabet, let alone... this like try to relate to you know his family because it's his father speaks both english and greek right but um you know if i if i go visit like you know some of the functions like everyone is speaking greek and i completely am like ah yeah and you know and i and i don't think i like because i i i've learned like some basic spanish and like but there was there was just this And I still kind of, because it's harder for me to learn. It would take so much of me to try and learn this new alphabet and then learn how to apply it and remember the words and the sentence structure and all of these things. But I've become more receptive to it because it's not going anywhere. I don't want to be completely... out of it.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:But I'm, I'm, I think I'm part of what I'm dealing with is just realizing my limitation. Like I'm never, I don't think I'll ever be fluent, but I'm like open to at least like when we were in Greece, I got to the point where I had studied the alphabet and the sounds enough that I could spell. Like if I saw a word, I could at least like very slowly, but I could like read most of the words and like read the signs. Yeah. And for me, that was like, oh, like, okay, I can do some of this, you know, even though I didn't know like what the word meant like I could at least piece together yeah you know so so that is that's one very like recent example where I was very like I'm still like it's mostly fear because I'm afraid that you know as much as I try it's not going to like I'm not going to just pick it up you know I
SPEAKER_02:didn't I have noticed like that's like that's like something that's really ingrained in our world where you If I'm not going to be the best at something, then why bother even trying? Because I remember very distinctly, like all Asian kids, I learned the piano. And I learned the piano for a really long time. And then at some point I remember, I think I was in like fourth grade or something like that. I was really young. I was practicing piano and then I realized I am never going to be really good at this. Like there was just like this innate sense of knowing that And then, like, I think from that point, it was just sort of, like, game over. And I just, like, completely gave up. My mom did not give up. Which, bless her, because eventually it did come back in handy in my later, like, educational journey. But, you know, like, there's just, like, this sense in our world where if I'm not going to be really good at it, then I should just quit. And I don't know. Like, as I get older, I sort of... recognize when that happens and then i really ask myself well what is the point of me trying to learn this is it really because i want to get good at it is it because i want to be the best at it or is it just for like the pure fun of i really enjoy this activity so i'm just going to play because there's a difference yeah and i think when we're young like they just make you think that if you're not going to be good at it then get out, like get out of the way, let someone else do it. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:No, there's definitely a, like, you know, I can, I, I remember distinctly, I, I, I had a friend who growing up when, and I want to say maybe four or five, um, she was a very, like, even at five, she was an accomplished piano player. And I remember, um, you know, seeing that. And I remember at the time I didn't have any ambition to be a good piano player, but my, like my, my dad, especially, I remember this, this time after a recital, we had gone to see her play and after she was done, I just went to the piano and was like, and my dad was so embarrassed and he snatched me up and was like, oh, but, and I can understand it now because, you know, after someone who had been, you know, rehearsing and earn their time to perform. But I was little. I didn't know. I was like, ooh. Because at the time, I was like, ooh, let me see what this thing is. Yeah, you're exploring. Exactly. And I remember learning very early, like, okay, if you're... And even as a performer now, there is something about... being experimental in front of people and having that, like, you know, like an open mic night. You know, like, I love going to open mic nights where not everyone's a professional. Like, because there are those open mics where you go and, like, everyone there, like, clearly is, like, ready to audition for whatever. But then there are some open mic nights where it's truly, like, people, there's a space for people to try at something that they probably, like, they sometimes, they may not have ever done it before. Like, remember Kelly Writer's House yes like I remember going to that there was an open mic and people would get up and read poetry they would you know tell stand-up comedy whether it was good or not like there was a woman who brought dolls and like would reenact Duran Duran like you know but like I remember like I and I remember like oh okay like there are places where it's okay to show up and just like
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_00:try something you've never done before and it not be good because people are just there like you know like they're They're not going to tell you to get off the stage or go home. It's kind of like it's a reciprocal, like, show me yours, I'll show you mine. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:I know. I think, honestly, like, I think I've never ever felt like there was, like, a wall that I'm hitting. Okay,
SPEAKER_00:yeah. So I'm surprised to hear that. That's good. That's good. Yeah, and I think... You're
SPEAKER_02:like, surprise, I have a wall.
SPEAKER_00:Well, no, I think it's because, you know, I am pretty open. You are very open. I am. There's, you know, when I was in high school, some of my, like, friends would joke and call me simple because I guess because I was so kind of either naive or, like, you know, just kind of...
SPEAKER_02:Happy-go-lucky?
SPEAKER_00:Maybe or just kind of, you know, unassuming or like not aware of the wiles and guiles of people.
SPEAKER_02:You assume best intention in everyone.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yes. And so there, you know, there is that. That's another part of why I do or in some cases, like I realize like that's my vulnerability. And so, you know, it is. if ever I feel like I try to preserve that in some way.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. I mean, it's a kind of emotional jujitsu, right? Or, um, perhaps, uh, what is that martial arts where like someone comes at you, but then you use their own force against them. I think it's jujitsu or maybe it's, um, Oh my God. There's a Japanese one. Aikido maybe. Okay. I
SPEAKER_00:don't know the difference. I know there's a bunch of different disciplines, but I couldn't tell you. I know Taekwondo is mostly kicking.
SPEAKER_02:We're learning something new again. No, so very, very briefly, and by briefly, I mean I went to one session. They were doing a free workshop at the Y where I was a member. I went to, I'm pretty sure it was Aikido. And I was just like, let me learn some martial arts. And I quickly learned a couple of things. First, I do not like to be touched. I really do not. It might be an Asian thing, but whatever it is, no thank you. And when you're practicing in that kind of space, there has to be some kind of contact. It's a very physical kind of a sport. And the second thing I learned was Aikido, the idea isn't that you are on the offensive the idea is that if someone's coming to attack you you take the energy so say someone's lunging at you you take the energy that you're lunging and then you help them redirect the energy so that they're they're gonna hurt themselves instead of hurting you yeah so you're both walking and also defending yourself from whatever it is that they're trying to So like if they're lunging at you, you might like grab their wrist in a certain angle so that like they fall to the side. But they're falling not because you push them, they're falling because of the force that they're coming at you with. Huh, okay, yeah. It sounds to me like from what you learn emotionally, you know, from like your childhood or your early life, you learn like that emotional Aikido where you can recognize when there's like negative or drama or conflict that's coming towards you. And then you assume the position where you can sidestep it or you can maneuver it so that it bypasses you. And it's, you know, you're not trying to diffuse it. It's not your responsibility, which kudos to that. It's just that for you, that's not what you want in your space. That's not the energy you want.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And I think
SPEAKER_02:that's something that, you know, we can all really benefit from learning, you know, how to take the energy that's coming at us and then deciding for ourselves, you know, like, do I want this? No, not really my jam. So just... Let me help you on your way so that I don't have to deal with this, whatever this is. Maybe that's why we get along. It could be.
SPEAKER_00:Because I think we were kind of fast friends. We worked together. And I don't make friends at work traditionally. Seriously? We were like besties. I know. We would get lunch
SPEAKER_02:all the time
SPEAKER_00:and hang out
SPEAKER_02:on the weekends.
SPEAKER_00:I remember. And Kat and Kathleen were
SPEAKER_02:like, wow, you guys are like so close. What's
SPEAKER_00:going on? No, it was, it was like, it seemed very kind of like lighthearted, but like very easy to relate, to talk. Like you were always, you were the one who got me like reading again. I remember you were the one who introduced me to Goodreads.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:And I was like, oh wait, this is a thing where you can actually track the books and then like use it to like find new books. Like
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So, and like the movies, the International House, like I just, I remember I was like.
SPEAKER_02:How sad is it that they closed it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I mean, a lot of things have been closed. A lot of arts and leisure. University of Arts,
SPEAKER_02:I heard, closed. UArts.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it did. I
SPEAKER_02:can't believe it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that was a very big scandal because it seemed a lot of people did not see it coming. Yeah, but no, the arts, you know, I mean, arts and now apparently what, museums and libraries are getting... just decimated. There's
SPEAKER_02:always
SPEAKER_00:that. Yes. But so we have to make it for ourselves somehow, or, you know, it's another type of spiritual death. It's a real death, but it also will probably cause a lot of spiritual deaths in the process.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I try to think about how a lot of the stuff that we're losing um was made by us you know they weren't made by okay fine Carnegie Mellon donated a lot of libraries and Benjamin Franklin started the first library that kind of thing okay I get it um at the same time like folk music you know open mic
SPEAKER_03:yeah
SPEAKER_02:that kind of stuff is never going to really go away because it's supported and it's created and it's maintained um by people like you. Not people like me because I don't like the idea of standing on stage and singing to people or doing any kind of performing. There are people who obviously that's where they get sort of like their rejuvenation. Like that's how you get re-energized by being part of these communities where you create art for each other.
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_02:you were just talking about how like Your favorite nights at my open mic are not the nights when people are there to audition to become the next backup singer for, I don't know, Bruno Mars. Is Bruno Mars still a thing? I think so. Okay, so you're not interested in the almost semi-professional. You're interested in the people who are trying to do something new, who are experimenting, who are trying new ways of expressing themselves. So we might not have... big institutional museums and art galleries and stuff we will always have the the community stuff and that can always grow into something different
SPEAKER_00:that's true there's always some type of like community that goes underground for a while and meets in secret
SPEAKER_02:yeah the punk scene yeah um i mean the doors they started underground
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, a lot of our favorite bands and even writers and poets. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:they all start from the ground level and they grow.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. We've got to go to the mattresses. Isn't that a term from The Godfather? I think that means have to go
SPEAKER_02:to war.
SPEAKER_00:Well, no, but it's when a war is happening, they scurry to the mattresses. They have to go into hiding because of the war so that they don't all get killed. Because basically it's like the transfer of power. If I remember correctly, I forget if it was Godfather 1 or 2, when all the families were fighting and the family that was in power when they like lost power, they realize, okay, if we're going to survive, we need to go to the mattresses and like hide out because we clearly don't have a hold on the city anymore. So it's like, I feel like we're, we're, we're like some of our communities. We have to scurry to the mattress.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's going to be like a weird combination of like skirt, like going to the mattresses and wintering. And also at the same time, like standing up and going, you know what this, I can't this for this specific thing. I'm not, I'm not going to go to the mattresses. I'm not going to winter. I'm going to be there because I have capacity for that.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And for me, that's going to go see a lot of movies and being tons of book clubs because I'm insane.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's not insane. It's just a different type of energy. No, I feel you on that. I definitely, there are certain days. I think when I was thinking about this podcast, I remember I was trying to go to sleep, but yet I was like, oh, I've got to put this idea into my phone. I remember thinking to myself, Autumn, is this another one of your hallucinations of... something that you think is going to fulfill you or you know be the next thing but it's really just you hallucinating and it'll be gone but anyway i'm giving it a try this is this is my second one so i
SPEAKER_02:mean again like you know you shouldn't let that condition of like i have to this has to be the next thing or has to go viral yes because like a lot of times like the things that go viral like the People didn't mean for them to be viral.
SPEAKER_00:It's true, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yoga with Adrienne. Have
SPEAKER_00:you heard of it? Yoga with Adrienne, no.
SPEAKER_02:Yoga with Adrienne is like a YouTube yoga program that's for free. And it became viral during the pandemic for obvious reasons.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, is that where you learned your chaturanga? Yes. Is that what
SPEAKER_02:it's called?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:um that has been fast yes i learned it from adrian um it was just really fascinating because actually um i heard a little bit of backstory where in the beginning when i think it was like the first two three years she was putting up free yoga videos every week and she wasn't really getting that many hits on youtube you know like maybe like 20 30 views or something like that
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_02:and then you know like I think at some point it hit the tipping point, but she had already been at it for years. And she wasn't making any money off of it. And now it's like this huge cultural phenomenon. And I'm pretty sure she's financially independent. Like that's how successful it became. Sure, yeah. But when she first started, she just was really passionate. She was like, you know, learning how to be with yourself, learning how to be with your body is important to me. I value that. I want to help other people. get to that point
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_02:so she just kept doing it even though she wasn't getting she wasn't like making a living off of it she wasn't the best at it
SPEAKER_03:yeah
SPEAKER_02:so i say you know if you have hallucinations and then you decide i want to just give it a try and make it real if you stick to it you don't know
SPEAKER_00:you don't know what's going to happen.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the exciting part, I guess, of learning something new or, like, being open to something that, a new possibility that I wouldn't have even thought of or, you know, hallucinating and not realizing, you know, the full extent of my hallucination. But, you know, there is some fun in that. There is some, I'm always drawn to some type of, like, unknown experience but usually i'm looking for the unknown that is on the pleasurable side not on the opposite
SPEAKER_02:there's like a whole movement about that how like the the pleasure movement have you heard about that
SPEAKER_00:no
SPEAKER_02:or not pleasure pleasure active activism so oh I'm going to really botch the explanation. That's okay. We can research it. I'll put the link in the resources. I was reading this writer and activist named Adrienne Marie Brown. She had written a tiny little book called We Will Not Cancel. I loved it. It was tiny. It's this big and it's 20 pages. Lovely. I was like, let me learn more about this writer. She wrote a whole book about how the the best act of rebellion and defiance against capitalism and patriarchy is really um doing things that gives you pleasure which you know kind of enough said right yeah because if you're
SPEAKER_00:doing what if what if people do things that give them pleasure but the things that give them pleasure are like hurtful to other people
SPEAKER_02:well then you have to really ask yourself is the thing that's giving you pleasure really the thing that gives you pleasure? Because a lot of times... But there's things... There's
SPEAKER_00:just sadism. There are people who are sadists who get pleasure out of cruelty.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, there are... I think that there is some kind of... I think that there are probably people out there in the world who do derive pleasure from hurting other people. I also think that... when we get really clear about what it is that we're needing and then trying to meet that need, a lot of times we'll find that there are other ways of meeting that need that doesn't necessarily involve harming other people. Yeah. And I think the important thing is, like, there are... so as human beings we're always going to be in conflict at some point because we all have needs and then our needs are not always going to be met and then the challenge is to figure out like one is what I need really what I need like if you were really honest about that I think that would clear out like half of the conflicts to just be honest like do I really need that you know what no no I really don't and you'll actually be happier for it because it's like one less thing to worry about and the second thing I think is like there are different ways of meeting your needs. And I'm not, this isn't my idea. This is from this other school of thought, nonviolent communication. Like a lot of times, like for example, you know, I say I'm really hungry. I need a slice of pizza, right? But no, no, the need is I need food. Pizza is one kind of food. I can eat sushi. I can eat like pudding. Oh, actually, pudding sounds really good.
SPEAKER_00:Pudding. Yes, chocolate pudding. Chocolate pudding.
SPEAKER_02:But you know what I mean? So maybe the need for sadism is you need control. Well, you can have control in a lot of different ways. That doesn't involve hurting. Maybe it's the sensation that people respect you. Well, you can do that in a lot of ways without hurting people. There are all these different ways of meeting the needs. You just need to figure out what it is. So first, be honest. Do you really need that pudding? No. No, I do not. Second, what is it I'm needing? I need food. Okay, great. How about a carrot? Actually, a carrot will probably be better for me right now. because I need the vitamin A or whatever it is in carrots.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:All right. I'm glad. Thank you for... I didn't mean to derail the... What was it? The pleasure...
SPEAKER_02:No, that's all part of the pleasure activism.
SPEAKER_00:Pleasure activism. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Because what's more pleasurable than meeting your need? You didn't eat all day and then you had two slices of pizza and it was the best goddamn pizza in the entire world.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it was. Right? Oh, yes. Meeting need. And we still have, I've got some tiramisu. Yeah. In the fridge.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Pleasure activism right there. Yes. Yes. And you're supporting local business. That's true. Even
SPEAKER_00:though they're going out of business. They are going out. We went to Pika's Pizza in Upper Darby. I don't remember exactly when their close date is, but they've been around for a very long time. And so we got some food there. We got pizza. We got tiramisu and cannolis.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. The cannoli was excellent.
UNKNOWN:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Lee's a gun. Take the cannoli.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Another Godfather reference. That's right. I mean, hey, it is part of America's fabric. Yes. Well, look, we're over an hour. Look at this.
SPEAKER_02:We're like a minute over an hour. Yeah. That's pretty good. Are we going to make this into like a, what is his name? Seth Rogen? No. What is his name? Josh, Joe, Joe Rogan.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. He's got a podcast. Yeah. Are we
SPEAKER_02:doing like a Joe Rogan thing? Cause I hear his podcast goes for like four or five hours. I'm not sure I can handle
SPEAKER_00:that. Oh, well he did host fear factor. So he's like an extremist. That's extreme podcasting. This is like dipping toes into podcasting. This is like dainty little unicorn by the pool, like flicking water podcasting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I love that movie.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think we can wrap up. Do you have any closing thoughts? I say usually. I've only done this once before, but I like to lead out with, what the fuck are you going to learn tomorrow? What am
SPEAKER_02:I going to learn tomorrow? I don't know. Tomorrow is like a completely blank slate, so I'm going to learn what tomorrow is going to be like. That's what I'm going to learn tomorrow. Yeah. And I kind of like that. Yeah. Expectations tend to stress me out.
SPEAKER_00:I hear you. What about you? What the fuck are you going to learn tomorrow? Well, tomorrow's Friday, so I think I'm going to learn whether I'm going to need to work... over the weekend because I have to get something done next week. I do a newsletter, and so it takes me a good number of hours to do it well. Yeah. But it's enjoyable, but I will learn tomorrow on how much freedom I have this weekend, among other things.
SPEAKER_02:Freedom within the form.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:It's going to be fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thanks for joining us. We hope you learned something today.
SPEAKER_00:You better have fucking learned something. If you didn't learn something from this podcast today, send a message. I think I put up a message. You have to submit something.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:If you don't think you could learn something, I want to hear from you. Unacceptable.
SPEAKER_02:Unacceptable.
SPEAKER_00:We have spoken. All right. Well, thank you for joining us. Until next time. The fuck you gonna learn tomorrow? Hey. The fuck you gonna learn tomorrow?
